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devtalk.

Ray Molenkamp
All,

As I understood devtalk was setup as a dev 2 dev support site, I'm kinda
confused we invited end users to 'join the conversation' on it now, as
they are putting feature requests all over the place, last night the
blender development forum was 80+% feature requests on the first page.
kinda ruining the signal to noise ratio. Since then someone came by and
moved them all to the code-quest section. Also a banner has been put up
mentioning the site is not for feature requests. but still, users do what
user do...

While I do see value in gathering user-feedback, it's not very hard to
imagine that the line between feedback and feature requests is arbitrary
at the best of times.

Especially with all the changes currently in 2.8, it's also easy to see
ahead of time that the discussion would be 'heated' at times, devtalk
pretty much coasted by with little to no moderation.

Given the response so far, it's clear users are screaming for an outlet
to share their ideas/opinions/and feature requests.

The question is, was devtalk really the best venue for this experiment?
couldn't we just have spun up another discourse instance?

--Ray
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Re: devtalk.

Brecht Van Lommel-4
I think it can work if we make it so developers start topics to request
feedback on features they are working on. For example one topic for
shortcut key changes, one for collections, etc. Then we can strictly
moderate it, close topics when a project is done and keep the number of
topics under control to avoid overpowering the other posts.

If we let everyone make topics about whatever it's always going to be
difficult to manage, regardless if we do it on devtalk or another forum.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:10 PM, Ray Molenkamp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> All,
>
> As I understood devtalk was setup as a dev 2 dev support site, I'm kinda
> confused we invited end users to 'join the conversation' on it now, as
> they are putting feature requests all over the place, last night the
> blender development forum was 80+% feature requests on the first page.
> kinda ruining the signal to noise ratio. Since then someone came by and
> moved them all to the code-quest section. Also a banner has been put up
> mentioning the site is not for feature requests. but still, users do what
> user do...
>
> While I do see value in gathering user-feedback, it's not very hard to
> imagine that the line between feedback and feature requests is arbitrary
> at the best of times.
>
> Especially with all the changes currently in 2.8, it's also easy to see
> ahead of time that the discussion would be 'heated' at times, devtalk
> pretty much coasted by with little to no moderation.
>
> Given the response so far, it's clear users are screaming for an outlet
> to share their ideas/opinions/and feature requests.
>
> The question is, was devtalk really the best venue for this experiment?
> couldn't we just have spun up another discourse instance?
>
> --Ray
> _______________________________________________
> Bf-committers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>
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Re: devtalk.

Ray Molenkamp
I think this is a case of what was envisioned and what is actually
happening on devtalk currently being a tiny bit out of whack.

Devs getting feedback on specific topics is great! a wall of
'Hey devs, lets vote! left or right mouse button!',  'when is
feature X finially finished?' and 'lets change blenders version
number!' not quite as much.

--Ray


On 6/1/2018 2:29 PM, Brecht Van Lommel wrote:

> I think it can work if we make it so developers start topics to request
> feedback on features they are working on. For example one topic for
> shortcut key changes, one for collections, etc. Then we can strictly
> moderate it, close topics when a project is done and keep the number of
> topics under control to avoid overpowering the other posts.
>
> If we let everyone make topics about whatever it's always going to be
> difficult to manage, regardless if we do it on devtalk or another forum.
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:10 PM, Ray Molenkamp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> As I understood devtalk was setup as a dev 2 dev support site, I'm kinda
>> confused we invited end users to 'join the conversation' on it now, as
>> they are putting feature requests all over the place, last night the
>> blender development forum was 80+% feature requests on the first page.
>> kinda ruining the signal to noise ratio. Since then someone came by and
>> moved them all to the code-quest section. Also a banner has been put up
>> mentioning the site is not for feature requests. but still, users do what
>> user do...
>>
>> While I do see value in gathering user-feedback, it's not very hard to
>> imagine that the line between feedback and feature requests is arbitrary
>> at the best of times.
>>
>> Especially with all the changes currently in 2.8, it's also easy to see
>> ahead of time that the discussion would be 'heated' at times, devtalk
>> pretty much coasted by with little to no moderation.
>>
>> Given the response so far, it's clear users are screaming for an outlet
>> to share their ideas/opinions/and feature requests.
>>
>> The question is, was devtalk really the best venue for this experiment?
>> couldn't we just have spun up another discourse instance?
>>
>> --Ray
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bf-committers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Bf-committers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

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Re: devtalk.

Campbell Barton
The forum was started with the understanding it would be a low traffic
site focusing on development.
I think we should keep this general goal, even if we have some areas
where users are invited to give feedback.

Since the code-quest section was added the front page was showing many
posts which are closer to feature-request threads on Blenderartists.

I've set the code-quest section not to show on the front page so it
doesn't distract too much from developers posts.


On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:30 PM, Ray Molenkamp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think this is a case of what was envisioned and what is actually
> happening on devtalk currently being a tiny bit out of whack.
>
> Devs getting feedback on specific topics is great! a wall of
> 'Hey devs, lets vote! left or right mouse button!',  'when is
> feature X finially finished?' and 'lets change blenders version
> number!' not quite as much.
>
> --Ray
>
>
> On 6/1/2018 2:29 PM, Brecht Van Lommel wrote:
>> I think it can work if we make it so developers start topics to request
>> feedback on features they are working on. For example one topic for
>> shortcut key changes, one for collections, etc. Then we can strictly
>> moderate it, close topics when a project is done and keep the number of
>> topics under control to avoid overpowering the other posts.
>>
>> If we let everyone make topics about whatever it's always going to be
>> difficult to manage, regardless if we do it on devtalk or another forum.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:10 PM, Ray Molenkamp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> As I understood devtalk was setup as a dev 2 dev support site, I'm kinda
>>> confused we invited end users to 'join the conversation' on it now, as
>>> they are putting feature requests all over the place, last night the
>>> blender development forum was 80+% feature requests on the first page.
>>> kinda ruining the signal to noise ratio. Since then someone came by and
>>> moved them all to the code-quest section. Also a banner has been put up
>>> mentioning the site is not for feature requests. but still, users do what
>>> user do...
>>>
>>> While I do see value in gathering user-feedback, it's not very hard to
>>> imagine that the line between feedback and feature requests is arbitrary
>>> at the best of times.
>>>
>>> Especially with all the changes currently in 2.8, it's also easy to see
>>> ahead of time that the discussion would be 'heated' at times, devtalk
>>> pretty much coasted by with little to no moderation.
>>>
>>> Given the response so far, it's clear users are screaming for an outlet
>>> to share their ideas/opinions/and feature requests.
>>>
>>> The question is, was devtalk really the best venue for this experiment?
>>> couldn't we just have spun up another discourse instance?
>>>
>>> --Ray
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bf-committers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bf-committers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bf-committers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers



--
- Campbell
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Re: devtalk.

Ton Roosendaal
Hi,

I talked about it with Brecht and Campbell. This is what the current situation is (should be):

- developer.blender.org <http://developer.blender.org/>
Here we host design tasks with open discussion, however only tasks will be added with an active developer or team assigned. (i.e. only approved projects for a release).

- devtalk.blender.org <http://devtalk.blender.org/>
General questions, discussion and feedback on *current* development projects, or help for new developers on topics they want to work on. With 2.8 still in development, this is a good place to ask questions or get feedback.

- lists.blender.org <http://lists.blender.org/>
We keep this list (for the big picture) and the commit log list, but we propose to move the specialised mailing lists (gamedev, physics, animsys, cycles) to devtalk.

There is no official place for design proposals and feature requests. This is mostly a practical issue, the very small developer team can simply not handle the avalanche of ideas and suggestions from users.

For that reason external websites still work best - even when chaotic or noisy. Often good ideas bubble up and get attention from developers. Try blender.community/c/rightclickselect/ <https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/> or blenderartists.org <http://blenderartists.org/> .

Thanks,

-Ton-

--------------------------------------------------------
Ton Roosendaal  -  [hidden email]   -   www.blender.org
Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute
Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands

> On 2 Jun 2018, at 08:00, Campbell Barton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The forum was started with the understanding it would be a low traffic
> site focusing on development.
> I think we should keep this general goal, even if we have some areas
> where users are invited to give feedback.
>
> Since the code-quest section was added the front page was showing many
> posts which are closer to feature-request threads on Blenderartists.
>
> I've set the code-quest section not to show on the front page so it
> doesn't distract too much from developers posts.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:30 PM, Ray Molenkamp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I think this is a case of what was envisioned and what is actually
>> happening on devtalk currently being a tiny bit out of whack.
>>
>> Devs getting feedback on specific topics is great! a wall of
>> 'Hey devs, lets vote! left or right mouse button!',  'when is
>> feature X finially finished?' and 'lets change blenders version
>> number!' not quite as much.
>>
>> --Ray
>>
>>
>> On 6/1/2018 2:29 PM, Brecht Van Lommel wrote:
>>> I think it can work if we make it so developers start topics to request
>>> feedback on features they are working on. For example one topic for
>>> shortcut key changes, one for collections, etc. Then we can strictly
>>> moderate it, close topics when a project is done and keep the number of
>>> topics under control to avoid overpowering the other posts.
>>>
>>> If we let everyone make topics about whatever it's always going to be
>>> difficult to manage, regardless if we do it on devtalk or another forum.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:10 PM, Ray Molenkamp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> As I understood devtalk was setup as a dev 2 dev support site, I'm kinda
>>>> confused we invited end users to 'join the conversation' on it now, as
>>>> they are putting feature requests all over the place, last night the
>>>> blender development forum was 80+% feature requests on the first page.
>>>> kinda ruining the signal to noise ratio. Since then someone came by and
>>>> moved them all to the code-quest section. Also a banner has been put up
>>>> mentioning the site is not for feature requests. but still, users do what
>>>> user do...
>>>>
>>>> While I do see value in gathering user-feedback, it's not very hard to
>>>> imagine that the line between feedback and feature requests is arbitrary
>>>> at the best of times.
>>>>
>>>> Especially with all the changes currently in 2.8, it's also easy to see
>>>> ahead of time that the discussion would be 'heated' at times, devtalk
>>>> pretty much coasted by with little to no moderation.
>>>>
>>>> Given the response so far, it's clear users are screaming for an outlet
>>>> to share their ideas/opinions/and feature requests.
>>>>
>>>> The question is, was devtalk really the best venue for this experiment?
>>>> couldn't we just have spun up another discourse instance?
>>>>
>>>> --Ray
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bf-committers mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bf-committers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bf-committers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>
>
>
> --
> - Campbell
> _______________________________________________
> Bf-committers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

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Re: devtalk.

Knapp
>
> There is no official place for design proposals and feature requests. This
> is mostly a practical issue, the very small developer team can simply not
> handle the avalanche of ideas and suggestions from users.
>
> For that reason external websites still work best - even when chaotic or
> noisy. Often good ideas bubble up and get attention from developers. Try
> blender.community/c/rightclickselect/ <https://blender.community/c/
> rightclickselect/> or blenderartists.org <http://blenderartists.org/> .
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Ton-
>

What about BF-funboard? I thought that is what it was for.

--
Douglas E Knapp, MSAOM, LAc.
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